The evolution of "Gothism"

It is kind of funny that all the bands we say are goth now did not think they were goth.

but other than music, I think the fashion has developed too

SPF wrote:

but other than music, I think the fashion has developed too

I agree 100%. It's been expanding to a range of different styles (Trad, Cyber, Rivethead, and Goth Lolita).

That's why I love making my outfits, so that I can make anything within these styles and still look Goth.

;-;
For the life of me, I can never find any "goth" clothing I look good in.
There was a time when I had brief hope that someone would guide me through the Dos and Donts of "gothiness" but now I'm starting to wonder if I'll still have that opportunity to be someone's "Ken Doll" as she put it. lol

I dunno... maybe I'm cursed to have the heart, mind, and soul of a goth while being damned to wearing "Normie" clothes all my life.

Or... maybe I'll wear all white and call it "Monochromatic Goth".

I dunno if this is relevent;please feel free to delete if not.

I was at college doing A Levels.
One of my subjects was Sociology.
I used "Goth" as a form of sub-culture for a project on methodology but was told that it did not exist lol!!!
They only accepted Mods and Rockers and I am talking late eighties.
I was into heavy metal;my friends were either hippies or Goths.
My Girlfriend was a Goth!!
But Goth did not exist.
I found that bizzarre.
Anyway;my own views are this;I honestly feel that I have an eclectic music taste;my friend s at college moved me from Metal to indie and Goth but personally I'm not that into the labels;I'm sure the bands that I call Goth most young Goths would have never heard of.
And so many so called Goth bands.........just heavy metal so for me is kinda full circle.
I was in a punk band when I was a kid;punk plus great lyrics minus guitar solos = Goth;add solos you get metal.
But if you wanna talk about attitude...............

WILLIAM BLAKE was the first headbanger and JOHN KEATS was the first Goth.............

I apologise if I have gone on;feel free to delete ED.Cheers.

^^I think Baudelaire was definitely up there as being one of the first goths, too! (well...okay, maybe the second one, haha)

That is sadly true. Growing up, I use to see Goths around quite a bit. Nowadays, I mostly see emo and scene kids. Thanks for sharing the article.

MoonRaven wrote:

Well 'Gothism' has been around in some shape or form for a long time.
I can see it going on forever.

Thank you Moonraven! You were thinking the exact same thing I was.

Being "Goth" has had many names throughout time...such as in the 80's. Those who listened to Bauhaus, Sisters of Mercy, The Misfits, etc, were not called "Goth," but rather New Wave or Punk, even though the terms weren't exactly right for who we were.

However, we couldn't say "Call us_________________" because there was ________________ to call us back then.

We just ...were.

Heck, I have a friend in her 50's who remembers being the gal dressed in black, high platform heeled boots, her own style of clothing and listening to David Bowie and Blondie (the first time around - not later on-- when the 1st punk wave from England hit America's shores in the 70's! ) when both of them were considered what would now be "Goth."

As MoonRaven said...Goth at least the spirit and what we are won't be going anywhere. Terminology and styles might change (such as the clothing that is available now wasn't back when I was younger unless you were loaded and could have it made after old patterns) but as for who we are...naw...we're not going anywhere.

angelofthenight wrote:

That is sadly true. Growing up, I use to see Goths around quite a bit. Nowadays, I mostly see emo and scene kids. Thanks for sharing the article.

I have to agree. I know I'm still young, but I remeber seeing people dressed in all black and would think "how cool!" and now all I see is the emo and scene kids and I think "how annoying" or "How ugly". Even the Cyber goth girl who used to go to school with me is now Scene.....it's soo sad! but ya, goth is definitly not going anywhere! It will change and evolve of course, everything does.

ravengrim wrote:

Something I Read Today

I think its kinds funny that the goth flag had that HIM symbol in it.

But to be honest I have only met 2 goths in the STL area in person. One was all about the 80s like me, the other into the industrial scene, but other than that...no one else. I haven't gotten a chance to go to the local club b/c i am away at school in a small town. None of my friends are into goth or look goth, but they can appreciate it.

Emo is a popular thing, and maybe goth was too, but at least you can tell who was really in to Goth (and thats not a lot of people b/c there are so little goths now)

I kind of relate it to Punk rock. Maybe its just me but I think there were more punks back then then there are now.

Perhaps time just acted a filter separating the trend from the lifestyle. Yet I also agree with GothicScrybe too

Goth- as ever it will change and evolve. Rock and metal may become a bigger influence thats the biggest change I have seen. More people just dreaming of goth and less people doing what they really want.

that 'goth' flag is aweful in my opinion, you can't use a band logo on a flag which is ment to represent a large group of people who are united not only by music. I know LOTS of goths who don't like HIM and lots of people who wouldn't call themselves goth who do as with any band.

It's funny... no one ever wakes up one day and decides, "I'm going to be Goth!" And I think that people who are wedded to strict definitions of Goth, emo, etc. really don't understand these groups of people.

You are who you are. Hopefully you meet like-minded people. We won't all be exactly the same, but that cross-pollination helps us understand each other. And maybe the group calls itself "Goth," but I think use of the term is a kind of shorthand for the other things about us: love of intense beauty and drama, love of intense art forms, ability to see both light and dark in the world.

Just thinking out loud. But I do agree that "Goth" does and will evolve, because Goths are individuals. (That's more than I can say for some of our detractors! )

RedAngel wrote:

It's funny... no one ever wakes up one day and decides, "I'm going to be Goth!" And I think that people who are wedded to strict definitions of Goth, emo, etc. really don't understand these groups of people.

Ha! My friend did just that! She did wake up one morning and declare herself Goth (about a month and a half ago). First she started trying to prove to me how Gawth she was (not that I even asked her to). Then she went on and on about how unGoth I was because I wear orange lipstick and don't go to Goth clubs. What the hell?! She's been my friend for many years, so it's not like I can kick her to the curb. Thankfully, she is finally coming out of her phase and is going back to her trendy self.

La Diva Carlotta wrote:

RedAngel wrote:

It's funny... no one ever wakes up one day and decides, "I'm going to be Goth!" And I think that people who are wedded to strict definitions of Goth, emo, etc. really don't understand these groups of people.

Ha! My friend did just that! She did wake up one morning and declare herself Goth (about a month and a half ago). First she started trying to prove to me how Gawth she was (not that I even asked her to). Then she went on and on about how unGoth I was because I wear orange lipstick and don't go to Goth clubs. What the hell?! She's been my friend for many years, so it's not like I can kick her to the curb. Thankfully, she is finally coming out of her phase and is going back to her trendy self.

Don't you love those types La Diva? NOT! It's like the woman I had say to me one time about "you kids and your fads."

When I politely pointed out that I was 40 years old and NOT a kid and had always dressed and looked the way I do...oh the look on her face and such a missed Kodak moment...

Diva: That's right! I remember you mentioning that friend who wanted to feel "Gother than thou." How weird. I know she's a friend and you love her, but it must have really made you wonder what she was thinking.

GothicScrybe: I would have loved to witness that! And maybe offer the woman some salt for that foot in her mouth.

RedAngel wrote:

Diva: That's right! I remember you mentioning that friend who wanted to feel "Gother than thou." How weird. I know she's a friend and you love her, but it must have really made you wonder what she was thinking.

GothicScrybe: I would have loved to witness that! And maybe offer the woman some salt for that foot in her mouth.

Ha ha RedAngel.

Gotta love those "priceless" moments!

I know this is kind of off subject in a way but I was in my front yard and my neighbors little girl came to the fence and said "Loooky Jen I went for the goth look in my bathing suit." (she is only 7. I had to admit it was a cute lil bathing suit. It was black with cherries on it.

Succubus wrote:

I know this is kind of off subject in a way but I was in my front yard and my neighbors little girl came to the fence and said "Loooky Jen I went for the goth look in my bathing suit." (she is only 7. I had to admit it was cute lil bathing suit. It was black with cherries on it.

Ha ha...Bettie Page in the making...

Well...........

Heck you guys an gals I just dunno!!!!!!!!!!!!

I grew up as a headbanger heavy metal dude and went through indie phase and punk phase;was never Goth to be honest.
But some of my friends say I was but they use my love of Blake (the poet) and Bauhaus (the band) to eximplify this..............Actually I don't think that is a real word........
Am very much looking forward to the new Manic Street Preacher CD as lyrics are taken from Ritchie;he died;he was young,he was a bit not liking his food type thin;he kinda went for the blade and blood type look...........
Ask Helen Damnation for more information;she knows about the chap I am talking about.
I went from despair to where and I still have no answers.
I hate labels and will never be a part of any such thing.
But if you equate Goth with poetry,beauty and pain then I'm as Goth as it gets.
I die every day.

Well said Ian!

I'm gonna go ahead and disagree here and say goth is definitely about the music. Sure, there are and were decidedly spooky individuals with a flare for the macabre through history, but most people like that sort of stuff anyway, in the proper context.

To say that "goth" has little to nothing to do with the music seems a gross injustice to me. I feel like most (not all, just a generalization) of the people who for some reason are so eager to consider themselves goth and yet cast aside the music like it's a trivial matter only do so because of the attitudes of most goths regarding said music.

I think there are five main reasons that a self-proclaimed goth would scoff at the notion that the music is the most fundamental element of the subculture:

first thing is that for some reason they are eager to consider themselves goth because it IS popular and it IS coming back (which is what this thread was about originally anyways). One out of every three kids I would say you see walking down the street have some sort of "dark" edge to them. Stores and malls and online boutiques are catering to these kids' wants and the image is getting really popular. I love it. Easier access to the things I like, who care what everyone else is doing. Anyway, Though they are entirely different things, youth culture nowadays is drawn to any sort of alternative look, whether it be scene, emo, goth, punk, rockabilly, metalhead or whatever. They make no distinctions between the two because they are in love with the look and not with what it really is. Some people just want the label slapped on them because they feel it makes them look cooler. They WANT to be goth, instead of just falling into it. They project an image of themselves first that they want others to believe, and then hope that they can back it up and learn a few things in the meantime.

Second reason why I think people would downplay the music in goth subculture is because they aren't confident in their knowledge of the music that builds it, and those who are tend to be horrible elitist snobs. Instead of acknowledging that goth is 100% music related and risk being shot down and embarrassed by someone with more info than them, they depreciate its value and focus on more easily attainable things like clothes, classic horror novelists and kitschy Halloween-related memorabilia.

Third reason: because what if the unthinkable happens? Say you love dressing in black. You love scary movies and images of graveyards, coffins, crosses, zombies, HP Lovecraft, and all other related schtick. You are in love with the aesthetics of the culture, and yet....
you seriously hate the music. You've listened to it over and over and you just can't stand it. You'd rather listen to Elvis Costello (or whatever). Then what? Denied a pass into the exciting world of goth?

Fourth: People who don't fit into mainstream society, who have self-esteem issues, or who don't have a niche to fall into and are lonely are drawn like moths to a candle to the goth thing because it excuses their social ineptitudes. If they're different and lonely and don't fit in, that's sad. If they're different, lonely, don't fit in but then play off as a goth, they can foist their problems on the subculture instead of meeting them and learning to adapt. Instead of trying to improve their social skills, they retreat further and say thing slike "i'm a goth and people don't understand me, that's why I don't have friends". Young girls who don't feel confident in their appearance are especially prone to this behavior, methinks.

Fifth: People romanticize goth and make it seem like a state of mind or a thought process, like some weird zen Buddha/ritual cult thing. It's not. It is a music subculture. There are a lot of different types of goth but the one to which most people refer has nothing to do with books, architecture, movies, etc. It's just what it is. It's just music.


I say if you want to dress like a typical goth, do it. If you want to be spooky, do it. But why do people crave the title goth so much? It's like back in the day where everyone married into families to move up in rank-Baroness and all that. It ain't a club and goths aren't the kkk. There aren't levels.

Just be.

ima lil late into this..but i Like 2 say some things..i think u should at least appreciate goth music..if ur a goth..i thunk its a combo btwn the music and the lifestyle and fashion..now the label goth is popular but most of the clothes from hot topic are more emo-style..i confess..i do go to HT..but ONLY 4 the band t-shirts clearance sale..LOL..theres a store in NYC called vampire freaks dats more gothlike..i do love the store and is the only one in NYC i know of....the goth thing here in the bronx where i live is very small..i like it dat way, after all the bronx is the birthplace of hip-hop..ghetto goth? it can happen..but i'll be extremely PO'D if i see goths doing that sagging pants shit...yuk!! i gotta see dat evryday! but the style prob be industrial like or steampunk..gothic lolita is another style dats in but not much...but goth is like the undead..we cant die..LOL

So what music do you listen to then?

It’s usually one of the first things people ask, sadly often followed by, ‘Do you like…’ and the name of a random metal band or Marilyn Manson, to which the answer ‘No’ seems to do nothing but confuse and you’re forced to say that you like The Cure as some kind of meeting point between the underground culture you’re a part of and the media led music industry of today. Sad really, but I wouldn’t have it any other way, I like being a part of something small, something almost intimate, and for me the worst years of goth was when it went mainstream, but I’m getting ahead of myself.

For years goth was an underground scene born from the ashes of punk as part of the whole ‘post punk’ era, often labelled as ‘positive punk’. That’s when I got into it, the punk scene 1979/ 1980 was starting to fade away as I knew it, the new generation of bands didn’t interest me, the likes of The Exploited or Angelic Upstarts often pulled a high percentage of skinheads in, and once you’d had a good kick in from that bunch they were the last people you wanted to spend too long near. I found myself preferring the more ‘tuneful’ bands, maybe I grew up a little, but that’s debatable, I was still only 19 after all.

I can date my earliest interest in the scene from the first time I saw Bauhaus perform “Bela Lugosi’s Dead” on Top of the Pops, then still a programme that gave you a small chance of seeing at least one ‘alternative’ act each week. This was 1979, the year when things started to change for me, and this new movement started to take shape. There are arguments that will undoubtedly rage for years as to when goth began, but for me 1979 will always be where I chart my beginnings. It was the year that as well as seeing The Damned release “Love Song” and “Smash It Up” also saw a shift for me to the likes of Echo and the Bunnymen, The Psychedelic Furs, The Cure, Joy Division, and a darker edged form of rebellion. A more subtle twist to the bands I’d previously listen to.

25 years ago, before its popularity at the end of the late eighties it still carried with it that spark of rebellion from its punk roots, and in some respect that was still evident into the start of the nineties, I know plenty of people from those early days that stood up against poll tax for example. These days that rebellious streak is not so evident, today’s generation have all but forgotten that we were once like that, and what you wear is almost more important that what you think.

Sadly the ‘idea’ of goth seems lost; the music in the nineties was largely dire, possibly due to the scenes popularity at the end of the eighties bringing in a lot of people without those punk roots, who brought with them their own set of influences which largely diluted things. These days its deemed acceptable to play bands like Rammstein in a lot of goth clubs, something that never would have happened 25 years ago, can you imagine what would have happened if a goth DJ played, say, Iron Maiden in 1985, they have been lynched, and yet we tolerate the equivalent of that these days, and worse. Don’t start me on EBM.

It’s high time the scene looked back and reinvented itself again; the opportunities are there in the newer post punk style bands breaking through, and with the assistance of some of the deathrock bands and a small handful of goth rock bands we can make the scene great again, bring back the tribalism that made it special. Of course there will be casualties, but hey, this is war. Its time to reclaim the name of goth, and make it great again.

Who’s with me?

May be controversial to some but I love this article from the perspective of being an old goth.

Courtesy of Martin Oldgoth and Louderthanwar.com